I should know better. I really should. But I don't. And so I get burned.
Last weekend I made a status update on FB that I wasn't feeling well. So my friend (that I mention two posts down) says "At least you aren't vomiting twice a day, every day." I cringed instantly when I read it. I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was certainly referring to his pregnant wife's esophageal activities, not his own. But I didn't want to believe that one of my few long-time friends would say something so incredibly insensitive. So I went over to his page.
(Most of this is from memory and not verbatim)
His status update was something to do with his life being filled with barf.
So I posted a comment asking if he was sick.
He said no, his wife was. Someone should tell "Junior" that it's morning sickness, not all day sickness. Stupid fetuses.
To which I responded "Four years of infertility, $70K in medical bills, surgeries, five doctors and three states is what I've been through just trying to get pregnant. I kind of think a few weeks of vomiting is a small price to pay."
To which he responded that with their first she was sick into the sixth month and now with Junior it is 4x worse.
And I said something along the lines of "I'm sure pregnancy is very hard on your wife. But we have been through FOUR YEARS of infertility. I would gladly put up with 9 months of vomiting if I could just have a child with my husband. I can't believe you're telling the infertile woman that she should be grateful for not having the adverse side effects associated with pregnancy!?! I'm sorry if I'm coming off like a bitch but you really hurt my feelings. I expect insensitive comments from people who are oblivious but not from a close friend who knows that we're heading into IVF #3 in 2 weeks."
To which he responded (and this is a direct quote from my email): ""Wowsers... Didn't mean to hit a nerve. However, you need to chill out a LOT. Getting pregnant is beyond difficult for you. You have my utmost sympathy - you're someone who I genuinely think would benefit the gene pool by reproducing. I did not say SHIT to you - I didn't post on your wall. I posted something on my facebook as an explanation of the exact circumstances of Wife's first pregnancy. There is a hidden button that lets you ignore posts that people make. If you don't want to read me whining about how shitty it is for my wife to be so sick I can't have sex with her nearly as often as I'm used to, use the fucking button. If you don't want to listen to me whine about how shitty it is to deal with two women that have always had whatever they needed without having to worry about where it came from, the button awaits you. I'm not saying that the sufferings I must endure are anything relative to yours. I still want to give you a big hug and smack some pregnant into you but we both know that isn't how things work. The way you are acting now is only going to alienate some people who love you. (well, person. I don't think Wife really knows you well enough to qualify as love.) Think on that for a minute."
To which I responded "This all started from a post you made on MY wall telling me 'At least...'"
To which he responded (another direct quote): "I didn't even remember posting that until you mentioned it. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. In retrospect, I can see how it probably wasn't the best thing to say. In any case, I'm going to delete all this shit and hope to hear from you when you return from your trip. Fighting on facebook is lame. Ack off or send me a message or something after you read this."
Today I talked to a mutual friend. Who happened to be over at this friend's house the same day this exchange took place. The mutual friend did not express any personal opinion on the issue, he doesn't want to get involved and I don't blame him. However, he also said that our friend is not very happy with me and thinks I was wrong... I guess despite the apparent apology? So I found myself explaining to this mutual friend WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED that although my responses were definitely emotional, they were not written in an instant. I gave my friend two opportunities to back pedal. I thought very carefully about the things I wrote. I understand that my IF is my problem and I can't take out my infertility on others. However, as a member of a friendship, I have a right to expect some level of consideration and empathy. After all, that's what friendship IS!
I do not regret what I said. I do not regret standing up for myself when my friend was being insensitive and I am not sorry for it. Likewise I will not apologize. I WILL accept his apology. But is it being given begrudgingly? Is it genuine? Is he just trying to smooth things over even though he thinks I'm crazy/wrong? Is that ok?
I'm trying to decide if I should revisit this with my friend, either via email or in person, or if I should just let it die. I know letting it die would be EASIER. But I'm having a hard time thinking that is RIGHT. But then I also don't want to beat a dead horse due to some misguided "principal".
What do you think I should do?
Friday, November 6, 2009
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38 comments:
I don't know what you should say, but I would definitely say it in person and after you're not as upset about it.
I would be inclined to revisit it, but in person or over the phone. Email and electronic messages have a tendency to lose a lot in translation.
Think of it this way: if you had cancer and he made an offhanded remark about "rolling over and dying" because of the flu, no one would question the offense on grounds of insensitivity. And I bet he would backpedal and fall to his knees in apology in an instant. With infertility, there is a common, ignorant sentiment that infertile people make too big a deal out of it, and the years and accompanying misery of failing to conceive are lost on people. They just can't achieve the level of empathy we need them to.
Either way, he needs to understand that, as your friend, he has to be mindful of your sore spots and try harder than he is (based on the email) to respect your deserved sensitivity. That's what I would say face to face.
*Ahem.* *$0.02* *plink, plink*
UGH. I don't know what to suggest. If it's a really good friend (and it sounds like it is), I guess I'd recommend revisting it. But mostly, I'd like to say I am SO SORRY you had to deal with something like that. I mean - geesh - don't we have enough going on?
Mo
Wow! You don't get a boring moment these days, do you?
You can certainly try to knock some sense into him, but the skull may be a bit too thick for that. These are not things that you say to a friend who would trade the moon and stars and sun and the supernovas all together to have what you don't even want. he should see that without you telling him to.
It does not matter that he is so absorbed by his own 'problems' that he cannot be bothered to pay attention to what you say and he conveniently forgets where it all started. It started where he was an ass rubbing your trying-for-four-years-to-get-pregnant-and-not-having-an-easy-time-doing-that nose in his fertile wife's food hurling, right there, there it's where it all started. And of course, the only things that bugs him about it is that he does not have sex as often as he used to.
Being smart used to be very important for me. I realised later that being kind is far more important and sadly, far more rare. This friend of yours, smart as he may be, doesn't strike me as a kind person. Not to you, anyway. And apparently, not to his wife either, since he gets to say what he says on FB about it.
Getting back to your question. I think you can be friends in many other aspects, you can enjoy similar things, but he is in no way someone who cares for you. It is minimal courtesy not to talk about rope in the hanged man's house (not that you are hanging yourself, but such is a Spanish saying). I think you are not connecting to him on all levels, neither is he acknowledging the differences in your personal structures. Gawd, do I hear myself with the psychopoopoo?! Bottom line - he doesn't get you. And even if you do try to tell him your point of view, he will not get it. Enjoy whatever you have in common with him from the past, but keep in mind that he is a friend from older times whose path has strayed so much from yours that you cannot have common ground today, and never will, because neither of you will be in the other's shoes ever again.
Holy crap - that made me upset just reading it.
My first instict when I read his responses is that he is going through something really difficult and he was taking it out on you. Maybe fighting with his wife or feeling really bad that she's so sick... I dunno. (If he's this upset over only lack of sex though, he can eff off. That comment in there about sex "not nearly as often as he's used to" really rubbed me the wrong way.)
I don't really feel like I can give you advice since I don't know the details of your friendship but here's what I would do:
-If this friendship was important to me, I'd talk to him about the situation face to face. Maybe tell him that if he needs to vent that I'm here for him and that I need him to understand how I feel too.
-If the friendship wasn't worth it then I'd just let it go and limit contact with him.
Good luck with whatever you do! I completely understand why you responded like you did and I don't think you should regret it either.
I say let it die. He can't possibly ever relate to your pain and frustration. And that's okay . . . 'cept that he has demonstrated continually that he doesn't possess the ability to be sensitive enough to ever support you through your journey in the manner you need.
Can you imagine if/when you are pregnant, and dare make a comment (not even a whine, just a comment) like "Ugh, I feel crappy today" - he will jump all over you.
BTW, I was super-pissed that he had the audacity to mention how rough it is on him to not be able to have sex as often as he'd like with his sick, pregnant wife. Ugh, I feel bad for HER, truth be told -- she's gotta be married to him.
Here's an "at least" for ya . . . At least YOU get to walk away from this piece of shit.
Sorry, I ain't into trying again and again when these things happen -- been there, done that, with people who just don't and won't ever "get it."
HUGS!!!!!!!!
Hello. I know I am in the minority here, but I'd say, let it go. It wouldn't be b/c it is easier, but b/c friendship is more important. Revisiting things like that, in my experience, is usually not fruitful, it just makes each side madder. He said some boneheaded things, and he apologized -- even if it was "just" to smooth things over, that shows he has the humility to apologize and that he values your friendship enough to do so. He also said a few things that show he has a heart and has a clue. I'd call it a draw and move on. Just my opinion, as someone who has lost a few friends in her IF days -- it may have been necessary, but that doesn't mean I don't regret it.
Yeah.. the sex comment bothered me too. I forgot to mention that. Ugh. :(
Ouch. Ouch. I have no advice for you whatsoever, I have no idea what I'd do in that situation, but man. That was a shitty ass apology from him even after it was pointed out that, no, you did not wander over into that one, he did in fact post it right smack on your wall. And that is the thing that would stick in my craw the most.
(Though the "not getting sex" comment makes me pretty disgusted. You know what? My husband has not had sex for 3 months now. And he does NOT EVER complain about it. Not to me, not to anyone that I know of. Because he will very gladly go 10 months or more if it means a healthy baby.)
Geez, no advice really, except maybe doing it in person or over the phone rather than FB. Exactly why I don't have a FB account, but a similar thing happened to me on my other blog once where a little comment war ensued and it sucked. I'm really really sorry you had to deal with this--and I do applaud you for standing up for yourself!
JB said it better than I could have. I agree with her 100%.
Yeah, he's allowed to moan about his life on his own page, but have some sensitivity and for the love of all things, don't bring it to your page!!!
I wish I had a way to ad the "Ex" to your infertile status (even though it would never take away the pain you've suffered, at least it would allow it to be put in the past).
Sounds like this guy just does not and will not get it. So for that reason I would say let it die. But not let it die in terms of still be friends with him and pretend it never happened. More like let it die in terms of letting the relationship die. You need to distance yourself from this type of so-called "friend".
This guy is a friend of yours? I would seriously question my friendship with this person. Especially after the insensitive comment that is a dis to his wife about him not getting sex like he used to. Puh-leez. Sometimes, you really find out who your friends are when you are dealing with a crisis. This guy really isn't someone you can count on. Let it go, and if he really is a friend, he'll come back and give you a real apology.
I would revisit it in person and not rely on the information given by a 3rd party who doesn't want to get involved. It could be that 'in the moment' he felt you were wrong but had a chance to reflect or it could be he's a total tool who really doesn't get it. Empathy is hard to feel when you're throwing your own pity party.
I'd be pissed and hurt and probably hold him at arms length even if the revisit came with a more sincere apology but I do that anyway.
I actually thought it was funny and honest of him to say he misses sex with his wife, and the fact he told you that shows how close a friend he is.
But he shows blatant ignorance and disrespect for your infertility, and *that* shits me bad.
If he or his wife were infertile, then he would understand and never dream of leaving such a thoughtless comment. I think he got pissed because you dared to take him to task over it. Good on you. I LOVE when people speak up for themselves.
Hopefully, after all the energy has blown over, you may be able to tell him how much it stung. I think it will take a while, though.
Friendships are hard to navigate ... sometimes you have to forgive, sometimes you can't. You will work it out. You are tough and smart like that.
Oh, ack.
Perhaps an example of where the written word could be aided by eye conact and some non verbal communication?
I think you got the rough end of it, but these things always get messy in a typed forum.
xx
g
Oh my fuck!
Just what you need, a fertile person telling you to chill out about being infertile and then try to make you feel bad for calling him out on it. Umm...lets see would that be like telling a cancer patient to just "chill out" and get over it and that it's just "God's will"?! Seriously, WTF?! I don't know what it is about some people that makes them so unable to empathize with the situations of others. Jesus christ, it isn't that hard! I have never had cancer but I certainly wouldn't tell someone to get over it!
I know how you feel about not being sure whether or not you should let it go. Honestly, I probably would let it go, only because I don't think he'll ever get where you are coming from, but I'd be much less inclined to share things with him in the future. I'm a pretty loyal person, but when someone says something that insensitive I have a hard time letting things like that go and tend to just shut that person out for awhile.
This situation sucks and makes me glad I only have 5 FB friends! LOL!
Take care!
Long time lurker, first time commentor here. I just want to say that I LOVE the fact that you stood up for yourself! What he said was completely insensitive and over the line, especially for someone who is supposed to be a good friend of yours. I think so often people with infertility don't stand up for themselves and that's why attitudes about it the general society never change! So good for you :)
As to what I would do in your situation, well that would depend a lot on what kind of relationship I'd want to have with this man in the future. Obviously your readers don't have all of the data, and from the way you describe him on here, he's no peach (like others, that comment about the sex really rubbed me the wrong way). On the other hand, he's your friend for a reason. Honestly, I'd probably call him and reiterate again that what he said was really insensitive and inappropriate. More than that, it was unkind. And that if he can't understand why, maybe it's time to go your separate ways. At some point, you have to ask yourself if you really want people like that in your life.
On a related note, I wish you nothing but the best luck out in CO!
sorry to hear your friend is being a total PITA. Doesn't sound like he's going to see it your way, so you have to work out if you think revisiting (in any form) is worth the headache. Maybe better to let it pass, and re-evaluate, instead, how close your friendship with this guy really is. And maybe don't trust him to meet your emotional needs in the future. Blergh.
I would let it die. I probably wouldn't continue to be his friend anymore either though. Or next time he posts about his sick wife, make a smart ass comment - like, OH WAAAH. SHE'S PREGNANT, DUMBASS. Sorry - I'm just a bitch and don't kill myself over what to do when I upset someone. F them. Maybe that's because I'm on IVF #8.
I think this whole situation and this person's comments considering he is supposed to be a friend totally suck.
That said, I wouldn't go by the mutual friend either. I would try and talk it out in person and if he is still a jerk, drop it and drop him as a friend.
We have severe male factor and it has taken us 2 fresh cycles and a frozen to have our wonderful son and also become pregnant with baby #2. That said, I endured 4-5 months of everyday, all day vomiting, and lost 6 lbs my first tri alone. Sure, it sucked, but I would do it all again. I was, and am, totally grateful because I know many people would be willing to deal with this "inconvience" to have a healthy baby. I am sick, but not nearly as bad this time around, but I try to take it all in stride, because it is a blessing fertiles will never understand (like my maid of honor who got preg on her honeymoon, who had no sickness, and whose son is 2 weeks younger than mine.)
I am praying you get your bfp soon. You damn deserve it.
Kelley
I am late with this but I will voice my opinion nonetheless. Let it die. He won't ever agree with you and he'll never really understand it. Seems he doesn't really want to, he's too involved with his wifes vomiting and the lack of sex.(...speaking of vomiting)...poor guy...*eye roll*
You have to decide how important it is to you- his friendship that is and go from there. I think its wonderful that you stood up for yourself. At least you stick to your convictions and unlike him didn't offer an apology just to smooth things over.
thanks for popping by my blog. I'm currently in a blog slump. at least I've got interesting ones to follow(i.e. yours)
Wow. People seriously are assholes sometimes.
On the one hand, his original response to your post on his FB was probably fair enough. You asked, you got an answer. Not an answer you wanted to hear, but there it is.
If that had been the first exchange, I probably would tell you that sometimes shit hurts our feelings, even if the person hurting them didn't do anything wrong.
HOWEVER, that's not how I feel. At the risk of sounding like a 2yo, he started it.
I tell people over and over again- KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE.
You know, there were parts of my pregnancy that weren't exactly fun, too. You know, that pesky organs-failing, almost-dying thing.. well, it kinda blew.
But I would still never, ever have the audacity to say to someone struggling to get pregnant "hey, at least your liver is working." WTF, man?
I do think you guys probably got into an "at least" battle, which never goes anyway. He says at least you're not puking (and uh.. apparently getting laid. What an asshole he is for saying that.) and you say at least she's pregnant. The two things really aren't comparable.
Being infertile sucks. So does puking all the time. IMO, being infertile sucks MORE, but hey, who am I? (I digress.)
In the end, though, he had a giant temper tantrum and seriously landed in asshole land.
If you want to salvage the relationship, you could offer an apology that perhaps you shouldn't have asked about his illness when you weren't prepared for the answer. But that's really all I can see you have to apologize. (And that's stretching.)
Oh man....I hate FB for this reason. I get so annoyed by these thoughtless remarks from fertiles. I would say that you have to weigh how important the friendship is to you....I think you said your peace and I would absolutely not apologize for it.
I don't know what I would do either, although I suspect I would be tempted just to distance myself from the person.
I had typed more nasty stuff and insulted both him and his wife, but it really isn't my place. Fertiles!
Since you asked...
Take this with a grain of salt.
I agree that what he first said to you was stupid considering that he knows your infertility situation. It would have annoyed me GREATLY too and probably still would.
However (or but if you prefer), remember that everything is relative. I can personally tell you that from my very brief stint at pregnancy, though I never threw up, I felt like total ass. I was tired and nauseous and hungry (and moody) all the time and it honestly sucked. When you get pregnant, I hope you don't have to deal with all of that, and I know you say now that you won't mind it because it will be worth it for the end result (and it will), but if you are sick, it will suck and you have every right to complain.
Yes, he was definitely insensitive, but remember, that is his reality (well his wife's and he has to deal with her) and he can't imagine yours, just as you can't imagine his. If he is truly a good friend of yours, if you choose to revisit it, go in with an open mind. He hasn't walked in your shoes, so he really doesn't know that what he said was like a knife in your heart.
Good luck!
I'm sorry. That was shitty. But I would let it go. It's the same old story - people just don't have a clue what IF's like unless they go through it themselves. You are in the right and have the moral highground. Leave it at that in terms of direct confrontation. You may also want to withdraw a little from your friend. In time he will see that he was an a**hole but you have more important things to worry about and give your energy to right now and it's not him. Good luck with your cycle, not long now.... PS My twin brother sent me a text telling me that I was turning into a 'moany old hole' and that he could tell me because he was my twin. I chose not to make a massive issue about it because it would escalate and the person it would hurt more in the end would be me, not him, when I had other things to focus on. But elephants never forget, and I haven't.
I cringe at so many facebook status updates its not even funny. I'm glad you told him off, and I wish more people would fess up that they were having problems conceiving, instead of treating infertility like a dirty secret.
So, ER around the 25th...I will keep checking back for updates.
I know I'm a little late on this, but I'll add my 2 cents, too.
I think it's kind of crappy for someone (i.e. your friend) to absorb someone else's suffering as their own - he's not the one barfing, so he doesn't really get to complain about barf. My guess is that he makes himself scarce when the barfing occurs, but it inconveniences him for his wife to be ill. Even if he's there holding back her hair, the most he can say is "at least you don't have to watch someone vomit twice a day."
That being said, if you suspected that he was referring to his pregnant wife, I think you would have made more of an impact addressing it immediately, rather than giving him an out. When he responded with his "at least..." comment, you could have responded with "I hope you're not referring to your pregnant wife, because you know that will upset me." Because you asked, he felt entitled to tell you what he was talking about...and so I think you have to take a tiny bit of this back onto yourself (and I'm talking like an Angstrom or some such miniscule unit that can't even be seen without a room size magnification device. Maybe a quark - no one's ever seen those, have they?). He was certainly insensitive - there's no doubt about it. But you have the responsibility to protect yourself...if your friends do it, it's just luck.
So, I would let it go, as a mistake that you made in thinking that your friend would be sensitive to your situation. You may need to reevaluate the kind of friend he is*. From your previous post, it sounds like you've lost a little bit of respect for him about his stance on fatherhood anyway. You don't have to cut him out of your life, but you may just have to keep things to a more superficial level.
Good luck, and I'm sorry you were hurt.
*I also noticed that he was sorry that he hurt your feelings, and not that he was an insensitive dick. Apology wording is a very sensitive issue for me.
Umm... I'm sorry, but this "friend" is not worth the spit on the sole of your shoe. I question the intelligence and stability of ANYONE who posts comments about sex with his wife or uses language like "smack some pregnant into you." What a complete douche bag. Dump his ass. With friends like him, who needs enemies?
Erin from MASS
P.S. Thanks for shouting out to me in a recent post. ;)
He gets less sex than he likes AND he has to listen to his wife's barfing noises?
The man is obviously suffering a great deal and cannot be expected to think before he types.
OK, in all seriousness, I don't think he would 'get it' so I would let it go. He didn't remember that he started it on your page. I am guessing he is a bit flaky.
Hey girl, I would love to have met you for lunch while I'm at CCRM Tuesday but there is a problem. I have no car.
If my flight is on time, the plane would get into Denver around 10:30 AM local time and because my appointment at CCRM isn't until 2:30 PM, I was going to hang at the airport and then take a cab straight there and a cab back to airport afterwards.
Unfortunately, I just don't have driving flexibility. :(
Just read your post about your friend. Here's my honest opinion, let it go. He obviously loves and cares for you and do I think it was insensitive? Hell YES! But SO OFTEN people who truly love us so much say stupid things either out of awkwardness or the inability to express ourselves effectively or just because...
And, not to sound all sexist here but...he's a guy. He's not genetically programmed to make the delicate layers of connections it takes two full X chromosomes to make.
He just wants to bitch himself about not getting laid often. Can't really blame a guy. Some of it's rightfully about him. And, without any thought, he tosses out one ridiculous silver lining (if you can call it that) to NOT being pregnant.
Yeah, I know, I know - every single chick suffering infertility gladly take it on and so, so much more. :(
Now you're happy we're not having lunch on Tuesday ;)
OMG! You're so effen awesome for even offering to pick me up at the airport. I just love ya! I would never accept you going to that much effort.
But...I'm so glad you offered because then I could just suggest you pick me up at CCRM - say at noon? We can eat locally and if you can then return me to CCRM, that would be spectacular!
I'm going to email you my cell number and, in the awful event the plane leaves super late (which would kill my visit entirely), I will email you from my BlackBerry to confirm the plane has left on time.
This is so cool - can't wait to meet you in person!
Geeze... seriously? I would forgo any FB crap with him anymore and probably silence him from feeds etc so you don't have to see him. I can't even imagine my DH complaining about me on FB regardless. Seems stupid to me. What is HE looking for, pity, sympathy? FB sucks.
I'd do any communicating and probably would revisit on the phone or in person. Only to get whatever is still on your chest off. DUMP on him. He's an ass. He's dumping to FB for goodness sake.
LAST... if he or his wife had any clue about what people go through and how easy they have probably had it, he'd shut up. Keep it to themselves. Again... what is he looking for a paypal donation for antiemetic meds? If his wife was so bad, take her to the hospital. Ugh.
He's still not acknowledging that he's being insensitive...
Wow! I know I'm late on this, and I know you've already got lots of assvice, but I'd let it die.
He sounds like an arrogant, insensitive ass. Sorry... I know he's your friend but gah!
When I first started IF treatments, I was pretty openly opinionated about it, but I've definitely stepped back a bit since then, and knowing how stupid some people can be and how fertile people just can't understand, even if they want to.
Good luck with your upcoming cycle.
I'll post Monday evening, EST - hopefully with good news.
Ack! What is his address? I'm coming over right now to leave rancid tuna all over his front porch! What the hell?? Its one thing to post that as his status update, I mean thats what's going on in his life. But to post that comment on your page? Way way out of bounds.
I say the Passive Aggressive route is always fun. Maybe not helpful, but entertaining. Is there something he is self-concious about? Maybe balding, or something of the sort? Next time he complains... just say "At least YOU don't have to deal with haircuts anymore, we have to spend so much time and money on shampoo and haircuts for my husband". Cuz thats pretty much the same thing, right?
In any event, I just happened across your page! I'm a new infertility blogger, though not new to the TTC game (5 years trying, 4 MCs). Come by and we'll have a laugh, http://www.bustedplumbing.com. I am mentally flicking your friend off right now in your honor.
That sucks.
I personally would just ignore him and put him on limited detail. how insensitive.
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